Lets for a few minutes talk about how many different fruits there are in the world. To save on space I linked to a few extensive list to browse. Take your time and then pop back in here to read on.
Wikipedia List of Culinary Fruits
111 Fruits to Eat Before You Die
Man that's a lot of fruit! So many question!
Why so many fruits? I guess because there are so many species of plants. But...
How did all these plants figure out how to make fruit? Then make them so that animals, bugs, and people like it?
Are plants really smart enough to know how not kill us with their fruits? I've been told if you eat some red berries they can kill you.
I've been told some berries taste good to get the birds to eat them to spread their seeds around in their droppings. Some fruits have specially formed skins or shells that protect them in the animals digestive tracks. So...
How did the plants figure this tactic out?
Does evolution work psychically? How else is the seed in the squirrel's stomach suppose to tell the plant it's a failed mission. Tiny radios?
"Mission Control this is Seed 1. Come in Mission Control."I don't think so.
"Go ahead Seed 1 this is Mission Control."
"Mission Control I have a breech in the outer hull, loosing life support, all system down!"
"Mayday Mayday! Seed 1 Going Down!!"
So how do plants, our wonderful providing companion, know what they know and do what they do?
Explain it to me please. Because the only real explanation I can come up with is right here:
Genesis 1:11-13 (New International Version)
Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:29-30 (New International Version)
Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
So here's a good chance to show me plants are just a random chance not a creation of God. Good Luck! If you all want to discuss engineered fruits like the banana go see Ray.
Hi Dory - I think I've found your blog through several posts you made at Atheist Central. I figured I'd stop by and comment on your thoughts here.
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks *very much* for your opening statement above. Very few Christians who complain about atheism seem to understand that "non-belief" is the only correct definition / characterization.
Second, I'm not an atheist. I tend to agree with comments made my atheists, which results in me getting lumped in with that group. I mention this only to say that I can talk authoritatively about atheism, even though I'm not a "member" myself :)
Finally, I don't know why or how a plant figured out how to grow fruit. Maybe God Did It, or maybe it happened randomly, or maybe it happened for reasons that nobody understands yet.
One of the reasons I reject Biblical Creationism is that it effectively stops humanity's search for information about the natural world. Humans are curious and spend a lot of time asking "how" and "why". If the correct answer to questions like these is "God", there's no need to search further.
In other words, even if God did it, this doesn't tell us anything useful. Humanity has discovered amazing things by rejecting theist claims, and it makes sense that we will continue to grow/understand. Even if God made fruit trees, he has made them in such a way that we *benefit* from not being satisfied with that answer.
Cheers
Dory, I am an atheist.
ReplyDeleteI am not a biologist.
This is just thinking off the top of my head.
Plants need to distribute their seed.
Different mothods have evolved for doing this.
for example some plants seeds might just fall onto the ground.
A variant of this seed might have a slightly more "tufty" tip
This helped the seed blow a little way in the wind and land further from the parent plant.
This was advantageous. The more tufty the seed, the more it can blow in the wind, the better its distribution.
Now, fruit.
Let's take our same hypothetical plant that just drops its seeds on the ground. One variant seed had slightly more plant matter around it, a thicker skin if you will. It fell to the ground.
The animal that normally eats this plant noticed this slightly juicy seed, and ate it. The animal finally crapped the seed out some way from the parent plant.
This was advantageous to the plant. Descendent plants that had seeds that had thicker juicier skins around them were more attractive to the animals, and thus got eaten and scattered.
There is obviously no conscious thought or planning by the plant or animals.
The variants that produce slightly more tufty or juicy seeds is by chance
BUT
That the tuftier or more juicy seeds are more likely to survive or are more productive than the "normal" seeds is not chance. It is the rigorous selector of survival. It is the the evolutionary equivalent of a sieve, letting small particles thru but holdin big particles back. A sieve doesn't think does it? But shake it about and suddenly order appears out of disorder.
ps, just seen your profile:
ReplyDelete"Christian, Astronomer, Storm Spotter, beef eater, love the outdoors, and old things. That includes Mom and Dad."
Those are nearly all awsome things. Astronomer? Respect.
I love old things too. One of my favorite old things is my 1958 Panther motorcycle.
It looks and sounds like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4ZQ5ajfDeQ
but mine is black and prettier and has no side car
Whateverman- I have to agree that I don't like it when people take up Christianity or any religion and drop everything science offers. I love to try to unravel the great woven world God created. I find it a miracle just to see how complex we are just finding a single cell in the human body.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how you can reject Creationism over that though. I believe in creation but at the same time I know "micro" evolution happens. I recently watched a great video made by Ben Stein called Expelled. You all might want to check that out.
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
Stew-If that was possible what we have today is nothing short of a miracle. I'd still have to side with Intelligent Design though after tasting Apples, Oranges, grapes, mangoes, all fantastic fruits. Any ideal where the scientific community stands on these things?
I have to say that bike is pretty sweet! I'd love to get one of those a few years down the road when the wife won't have a fit haha!
Dory: I studied paleontology at UC Berkeley, and Stew is right: anything that can help an organism to reproduce is more likely to survive and pass on its genes. That's why we have fruit that tastes good, too: it helps spread the seeds. Of course, lots of fruit-bearing plants have long since been domesticated and deliberately bred for flavor as well, including all the fruits you mention.
ReplyDeleteCheers from chilly Vienna, zilch
I just wanted to point out that Expelled is a "documentary" based on lies and propaganda.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.expelledexposed.com/ shows you everywhere they lied.
"I'd still have to side with Intelligent Design though after tasting Apples, Oranges, grapes, mangoes, all fantastic fruits."
ReplyDeleteHow does intelligent design result in poisonous fruits? Fruits that will kill you if you eat them. They even look tasty.
Evolution has a few answers.
Beamstalk so is the theory of evolution. Everyone has a take on what proof of evolution is and some make up their own theory just to make a name for themselves. I looked at that website you posted and they make a pretty loose case against Ben. They could probably make the Toxic Avenger movie look like Gone with the Wind.
ReplyDeleteIf evolutionist would only publish hard fact and not theory I could hold some higher respect for the study. Articles I have found seem to twist adaptation and mutation to mean evolution. We need to establish a hard line definition of these terms we all use in relation to creation and evolution. I'll save that for another post since it would be a good topic to discuss.
Stew - My uneducated guess would be because those fruits would be meant to be self nourishing. Where the edible fruits use the animals droppings as fertilizer. Honestly I don't know. What do evolutionist say?
"Stew - My uneducated guess would be because those fruits would be meant to be self nourishing."
ReplyDeleteYes but from an INTELLIGENT DESIGN approach how is it explained? A world with everything good, created by God with man at the centre and steward of it all. They look tasty but they kill you.
My internet search only shows 5 tiny berries producing plants that are toxic. Nightshade, Jasmine, Red Sage, Moonseed, & Mistletoe. Most all are so tiny they make blueberries look like apples. Base on my experience growing up in wooded Missouri, these seeds tend to be about 90% of the fruit. That makes them useless based on seed to fruit ratio.
ReplyDeleteThen at the same time not all poisonous fruits are toxic to all creatures. I can't say this for 100% of all these plants. Just look at the Koala bear and Eucalyptus tree. The tree is toxic to almost all creatures but it's the Koala bears primary diet.
Intelligent Design would say the tree was made for the bear and the bear for the tree to spread it's seed.
we must have different googles!
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_poisonous_plants
We presume the Koala changed its diet during its voyage to, in and from the ark ;)
Just teasing!
"Intelligent Design would say the tree was made for the bear and the bear for the tree to spread it's seed." It's a nice idea.
Here are some interesting papers on fruit size as related to limits on seed number, carbohydrate content, shape of seed and birds beaks, and genes.
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/56/421/2995
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/83/2/145
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m72k655gnk340j52/
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/nursery/metria/metria11/ranney/polyploidy.htm
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/biot/2007/00000001/00000002/art00002http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:cevxAkbxclkJ:www.mycologyresearch.com/pdf/articles/Amin_Karmali.pdf+mushroom+secondary+metabolite+functions&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=810&m=13
I seen that list but only a hand full are fruit producing. Also I noticed many have medical uses which makes sense because even a aspirin might kill a person that takes too much. Then some are not toxic to all creatures. When I was a kid we had a lot of polk plants around the house. The birds would eat them all the time. Left a heck of a mess on my dad's truck.
ReplyDeleteDory, I grew up in Missouri too. I am also an atheist. I am suprised that you are not familiar with the Hedgeapple. Also known as the Osage Orange. It is an inedible fruit (technically it is a berry) that is mildly toxic. It is also BIG! The fruits can easily be the size of cantaloupes. Nothing I know of will eat them. I think that squirrels will break them open for the seeds, but nothing will actually eat the fruit its self. It also has a large fruit to seed ratio. It's thought that this fruit may have been the favorite food of the Ground Sloth. But God killed all of them in the flood (just kidding) so there's nothing that eats Osage Oranges anymore.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are forgetting that the wild form of most fruits that we eat today are not as tasty and palatable as the domestic versions. I have eaten wild plums before. They are quite edible and probably good for you too. But, they are a bit bitter and small. I'd rather eat a plump sweet tasty plum from the supercenter any day.
Humans are responsible for most of the big tasty fruits we buy at the store. Humans didn't create them, but we did modify them so that they are bigger, sweeter, and tastier. That is my biggest argument with Ray Comfort's banana nightmare theory.
We didn't have those in SEMO. We I came to kansas I see them all over the place. Hard as rocks.
ReplyDeleteI don't care for Ray's argument on Banana's either. I'm not a horticulturist by any means but I did search that banana one out.
Now today I prefer the more natural things. I'm in the market for some traditional chickens and not the meat market variety we see that are big as a turkey.